I think it will be better than the last. I watched the first Suns game, and even though they had trouble, they'll emerge once again as a great team.

Without crooked refs, I'd say the Suns can win the title now.

Cavs will do well, but will fail to bring a championship home.

I think the Cavs are going to suck for some reason.

Bulls are winning the East.

Denver the West. ALlen Iverson 14 assists 7 steals and over 20 points I beleive, hot damn.

Suns > Nuggets > Spurs = Mavericks > Lakers

In the east

Bulls > Cavs > Celtics

I'm hoping the Warriors weren't just a Cindarella wanna-be team

Usurper, I don't agree with your rankings of Cleveland.

They are at best the 5th ranked team in the EAST...

Chicago, Detroit, Boston...well maybe 4th. I still like Miami over them or even Washinton.

While the Suns are good, Steve Nash is getting up there in years and they don't match up well with the trio of Parker/Ginobili/Duncan. I don't see how they improved enough to go over them this offseason.

I predict the Bulls are going to do the same exact thing they did last year, they have talent but no real superstars. The Bryant deal might happen later on in the season, but only when the Lakers get really strained by his discontent that they would be willing to ask for much less for him. I don't think that happens though, the Lakers want equal value and the Bulls aren't willing to give up the whole team for him.

Suns and Nuggets over the Spurs and Mavs? Ok..... I won't mention how the Spurs and Mavs both present match up problems and have superior depth.

And the Rockets don't even get a mention...?

My personal West list (for now, barring injury or other catastrophe) is:

Spurs = Suns > Mavs = Rockets > Nuggets > the rest of the field

In the East I'm torn between the Pistons and Boston, I still don't think Chicago has quite enough to push them all the way to the Finals, although with Deng emerging as a full-blown superstar I might be proven wrong. Obviously if a Kobe deal goes down then that will change a lot. I'm with Da Bears about Cleveland, last year was entirely a fluke and LeBron played like an absolute freak of nature. I don't see that happening again and his supporting cast got zero help this offseason.

not 1 mention of the raptors at ALL? I swear, american TV (ESPN) refuses to cover this team simply because they are Canadian. It's unfortunate, because they had the best bench and point guard duo in the league last year (check the stats before you try to argue this). And their bench only got stronger in the offseason. Bargnani has improved a hell of a lot, and will probably be one of the most improved players this year.

Hell, they annihilated the nets, and wiped out a 10-point deficit in the 3rd quarter against your "Godly" celtics, only to lose in the last 2 seconds of overtime. and these are the teams that are suppose to win the division, with Toronto finishing 4th/5th.

Raptors/Celtics to win the division. Either will place 2nd in the east, with the other one finishing 4th.

I don't watch basketball, but fuck Detroit has an awesome team. We'll do good, I know it.

I'm not quite sold on the Rockets yet. McGrady is very injury prone and Bonzi Wells only show's up some of the time.

Yea Rockets look brilliant at times, but not as consistent as some other West teams.

And the Bulls are 0-3, I'm so mad.

Last year's Rockets, I would agree. This year, however, with the off-season roster acquisitions and the addition of Rick Adelman as a coach (as a huge Kings fan I know just how talented he is), they are a much more dangerous team than in the past, and far more consistent.

Bulls get out to this fucking slow start every season.

THanks, I Needed that to help me cope with my anger.

east -

Chicago
Detroit
Boston

west -

Who
Fucking
Cares?

West >>>>>> East

Bulls are terrible right now :/

Bulls are overrated. Deng is overrated. Yes, he will be a very good player. No, he is not that player yet.

Raptors will probably come 2nd in the division, but will surprise a lot of yankees because they will give Boston a run for their money. They absolutely rocked the BuLOLs on the weekend, and no one had over 30 minutes of floor time. Their bench was running up the score. Hell, Jamario Moon was doing a number on them, and it was his 2nd game!

from 1-4, west > east
from 5-8, west = east

Damn. So far,

Boston > San Antonio >> Phoenix >>>>>>>>>>ALL

You're forgetting Orlando.

I thought that Celtics were 15-2, Spurs were 16-3, and Suns were 16-6. What's Orlando's record?

16-6.

raptors destroyed the Mavs tonight. lol @ 18 point mavs bench

Suns handed Spurs their first home loss this season FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

Blazers on an 8-game win streak!

Hooray Chicago for going from winning the east, to probably not getting into the playoffs...damnt...

So with both of them absolutely tearing the league up at the age of 22, which player do you take if you're a GM starting a new franchise from scratch...LeBron James or Dwight Howard?

LeBron. Howard is the new dominant big man in the league, but LeBron is a once-in-a-lifetime player.

I agree with Zebra....

Dwight Howard is a great athlete and a great center....

But you have to look at Lebron's skill for his size. He's got the quickness and ball control of a PG/SG and yet he's a SF.

Lebron is a revolutionary player at his position. Never has their been a small forward with that type of talent. He's like a Wilt Chamberlain or KG...guys that are big but still have amazing finesse and skill.

SEriously, does anyone really watch the Cavs? I don't know if they are on national coverage (Ender I know you do because aren't you from Centerville or something or Dayton?). Basically what I'm getting at is you can go around the league and every team has atleast two skilled players....Lebron is all by himself. Larry Hughes sucks balls and has been injured throughout his tenure at Cleveland. Zydrunus is getting old and also is inconsistent. Lebron is the only reason that team is good, take him away and in my opinion they are the worst team in the NBA. If they could just get him a point guard they would be a great team....all my friends that are cavs fans are praying Jason Kidd finds his way to Cleveland, that would be a gret addition in my opinion.

And you don't think Howard is a once-in-a-lifetime big man? Have you seen the kid's body? He's enormous! He doesn't weigh quite as much as Shaq did at this age, but he's shorter and he makes up for it with a strange amount of quickness/mobility for a guy his size. I highly doubt we'll see another player with a body like Dwight's in our lifetime. I'm pretty surprised we're even seeing him after Shaq. He's also broken almost as many "youngest player ever to do..." records as LeBron has.

Also, it's been proven time and time again that a dominant center is an extremely key piece for a championship team (unless your name is Michael Jordan, although it could be argued that LJ is approaching and will eventually reach MJ levels of dominance).

I think I'd go with LeBron too actually, although it would be a very difficult decision. LeBron I think has a killer instinct and ability to absolutely take over a game (see: Game 5 of the Pistons series last year) that Howard doesn't possess quite yet, and that's what tipped me over the edge to choosing LeBron. Could you imagine if they found some way to play on the same (NBA) team?

There will be more like Howard. He's having a breakout season now, but who knows what he'll be like in the future. Depends on how that big body holds up. He's a great player but he hasn't quite reached the levels of Shaq-dominance yet.

LeBron is revolutionizing the modern game because he does just about everything. He's not the same type of player as Jordan though besides their ability to take over games. Jordan was the smartest and most confident player and a fantastic shooter, but he wasn't that big or strong. LeBron isn't the shooter or brain Jordan was, but he's big and strong enough to just bowl people over and attack the basket and he finds new ways to make a shot every single game.

I guess we'll have to see about Howard, although I'm not sure how you can think he won't get anything but better in the future. He's only 22. I'm pretty sure Shaq is the only big man in the history of the league to put up numbers like this at that age. Also, while this season is clearly his best, his first 3 are also pretty amazing considering big men usually take much longer to develop than guards/small forwards like LeBron, and he had absolutely no college experience (which probably helps big men the most out of any position as well).

I still agree with Zebra.

You say Dwight is a once in a lifetime player? I disagree, while he is a great talent...there are other centers in the league that are as talented. Look at Amare, look at Shaq when he was young, Wilt, and Oden....they all are great centers (well ODen has the potential if he can stay injury free)

There has NEVER EVER EVER been a small forward with the skills of Lebron..

I don't see how you can label James as a straight SF. That's as ridiculous as Magic Johnson being labeled as a pure PG. I lump him in the same category as Kobe, T-Mac, Pierce, etc in which case there are many comparable players. I'd say Oscar Robertson definitely had the skills of LeBron.

Also Amare has NEVER put up season numbers like Dwight is already, and Amare is older. Shaq is comparable, I'll give you that. No way Oden becomes a 25-15-3 player. That leaves Wilt, and it's hard to compare the NBA of his day with the modern league because of the difference in the amount of players his size.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing that James is more rare and special player, I just feel like you guys are underestimating Howard's potential, but I guess we'll just agree to disagree on that point. He's still the youngest player ever to reach 20 rebounds and to average a double-double. I'll bet he adds at least 25 lbs to his frame in the next 5 years. He's already at 265 and that's at very little body fat (especially when comparing him to Shaq's weight).

Also, the original question wasn't really who is more "special", it's who is most likely to bring a team championships.

Averaging a double double is't tht big of a deal to me...and 20 rebounds isn't that crazy. David Lee for the Knicks averaged a double double off the bench last year...

And 20 rebounds is cool, but that's just one game.

It's just one year, we'll see where he goes from there. And James is a small forward...just because he's versatile to play other positions doesn't mean he's not what he is.

And I still think Lebron is the most talented player I've ever watched. You say Oscar had his skills? Put Lebron James back in Oscar's era and he would run circles around everyone. Have you ever watched a game from the 60s/70s/80s? It's god awful. Even when I watch the famous Lakers vs Celtics rivalry games of the 80s the defense is pathetic. The game changed drastically in the 90s, especially on defense.

And I'm not trying to say Dwight isn't good...I'm just saying I wouldn't even think twice about taking Lebron, or hell even Kobe over him.

Yes but he averaged a double-double at 19 years old. That is a big deal.

Also he's had several 20 rebound games, not just one.



So what "defines" James as a SF? Because he starts there? Are you one of those people who insists that Tim Duncan is a PF as well?

Also, you're completely wrong about Oscar Robinson.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/col...eDoubles-071204

That article used to be free but apparently it's not now, so I hope you're an Insider. If not, Hollinger basically breaks the stats down and adjusts the pace of the game so that LeBron and Oscar are on equal playing fields. Oscar beats the pants off of LeBron's best season (which so far is this year) in pretty much every way, shape, and form. Not to mention if you're still going to push the whole "the 60's-80's defense sucked" argument, you have to consider that the current hand-check rule is absurd and dramatically affects (improves) LeBron's game by allowing him to get to the free throw line whenever he wants. I mean, if MJ was playing now he'd probably score 50 a game easily with how well he drove to the basket.

And I know you're not trying to say Dwight isn't good. I understand we have a difference in opinion on just how good he is, and at this point I'm just debating/discussing other points that have been made with you.

I still think you're getting too excited about this double double business. David Lee was in his second, granted he was 23...but David Lee isn't supposed to be half the player of Dwight Howard. David Lee also played ff the bench Not to mention I go by years in the league, not by age. Back in the day people didn't go straight to the NBA that often...so you can't go bye age in my opinion. But it was Dwights first year which is great for him. It's kind of like people who say LEbron has done more at his age than Michael...that's stupid...Michael's first year in the NBA he almost averaged 30, his second year he was injured for most of the year..his third year he averaged 37 POINTS! I love when all the Cleveland fans in Columbus try to say Lebron is doing more than MJ ever did...yea fucking right.

And I'm just defining a player's position by where he starts and his build. I don't understand what you are getting at. Just because a player has the talent of other positions doesn't mean they aren't what they are...It's great if Lebron at 6-8 can run the point or that Dirk at his height can shoot like a guard...but he's still a PF. Lebron is still a SF to me.

And maybe Oscar was talented...but I've personally witnessed the defense and it was atrocious. I still don't see him as talented as Lebron. The whole more fouls now days argument doesn't convince me. Athletes are much better than they were 20 years ago. Advances in conditioning and training make athletes much better now days. I'm not trying to knock on Oscar or older players because they still all played on a level field...I just think if you took the stars of today and played them against the stars of the 70s, the stars of today would easily handle older stars.

I'm only getting excited about it because of how early he is doing it. Let's take a look at some other young star big men who were high draft picks as well, and how well they've been doing:

Amare Stoudemire: Never
Andrew Bogut: Never
Andris Biedrins: Never
Andrew Bynum: Never
Channing Frye: Never
LaMarcus Aldridge: Never
Chris Bosh: Once (last year)
Al Jefferson: Once (last year)
Yao Ming (freakin 7'6): Once (2 years ago)
Kevin Garnett: Many times, but not until his 4th year in the league

Dave Lee also played 30 minutes a game, which is a lot for a bench player. Dave Lee also doesn't score and block the way Howard does, nor does he rebound as much. And he's a special player in his own right, it's not like David Lee is even close to average. He should be an All-Star.

Maybe you go by years in the league, but pretty much everyone else goes by age. The reason you can't really go by years in the league is because it disregards and huge positive effect college can have on a player's game, not to mention the difference in physical and mental maturity between a 18 year old and a 22 year old, and a 22 year old and a 26 year old.

You can't honestly say that 2 players, one who is 18 and another who is 22, can be fairly compared if they're both in their first year, especially if the 22 year old has 3-4 years of college experience. Even LeBron, who had a freak of nature body in high school (as did Dwight), has grown/bulked up/gotten stronger significantly since his first year in the league.



What I'm getting at ultimately is that positions distinctions are both meaningless and stupid, especially with the direction the NBA is going in. There's just no real way to classify exactly what position a player plays in many, many cases. With your logic, Charles Barkley would be a SF because he was 6'5-6'6 and really built, but he started at PF and even C many times and sure has hell played like one and considered himself one. What do you have to say about Don Nelson's system where sometimes Al Harrington is the starting C?

And Dirk is a PF at 7'0 260? Really? What do you consider Magic Johnson? He's generally considered a PG, but under your logic about a player's build he's at least a SF since he was both taller and heavier than LeBron...does that make him a PF possibly?

See what I mean?



It's not just about fouls. It's about general tempo of the game, average league shooting percentage, average shots taken per game, etc. Also, there was no 3 point line when Oscar played, right?

Maybe the defense was worse (in your opinion it was) but the average shooting percentage of the league back then was much lower, making it a lot harder to rack up assists for the triple double (although easier to get the rebounds). It's not like Oscar needed help scoring though, so I think the defense argument is a little weak.

I agree that today's stars would beat stars from the 70's and they're obviously more athletic (most of the time, not all of the time though), but when comparing individual players, especially one of the best of all time like Oscar, it's not the same as comparing a larger group. Oscar was definitely more athletic than his peers.

I really wish that article wasn't closed anymore, Hollinger did a great job with the stats to prove his (and in this case, my) point.

Just to reiterate my "Dwight Howard is the shit" argument, from today's Daily Dime:

I never said his numbers weren't great. I agree with everything you say.

I hate to say this, but I also think Howards rebounds are inflated because he is the ONLY players on the team that tries for rebounds. Rashard Lewis is the power center, but he doesn't play your typical power center role, same with Turkoglu, both are more finesse/shooting players. Regardless though he still has awesome numbers.

There are just other players i'd rather have around the league if I were starting a team (was that the original question? I don't know)

But yea Howard is definitely top 5...heck maybe even 3 after Kobe and Lebron.

What's this business about Shaq getting traded to the Suns? >_>

For Marion and a first round pick or something.....

And I Think Phoenix is tired of having the more athletic team/best record in the West every year and losing to the SPurs, so they are trying to pick up a Timmy D killer....similar to the Spurs picking up players like Finley, who often gave them problems when he played for the Mavs.

must suck to be denver or golden state

oh hey you have 33 wins and are good enough to host a first round series in the east, too bad you're in the west where you could miss the playoffs entirely while three losing teams in the east would make the playoffs if the season ended right now

but hey, maybe you'll make the playoffs and face the lakers or spurs in the first round!

edit: god the east is so sad

FUCk YES! The bulls beat the Cavs....

playoffs are on their way...

Wow, three posts ago I was talking about the shaq trade....not many NBA fans here are there....

Yea Zabean! playoffs are coming soon, too bad Chicago isn't attending this year so I don't really give a shit untill the conference finals and the Finals to be honest. Although I may watch some of the earlier rounds in the West.

I'm calling the East to win this year however. I think Detroit and Boston are the two best teams in the league.

yeah no kidding
but its still a long way to the finals even in the east
aside from having to pick the better of boston and detroit, whoever comes out of the magic/sixers is going to be tough to beat. sixers are becoming a real contender as of late, and well if magic wins, the only team in the nba to beat both boston and detroit twice, they'll have the momentum and be ready for a second round series. they have the weapon(s). and i hate to say it but the cavs can't be overlooked. though its been seen this season both detroit and boston have found their ways to shut down the lebron, it looked just like this last year when pistons had 3-1 over cavs in the regular season - but the cavs are a different animal in the playoffs.. or it was a fluke. they did get swept against the spurs.

but the west, there's no telling there.. i mean already each game of round 1 looks like it could be the conference finals