So is Heaven.

The reasons fuck posted about why everyone doesn't like you are why everyone doesn't like you. Trust me.

Well

I asked my cousin, who just happens to know a little on the subject. Its hella long, but its incredibly insightful and full of interesting information. Keep in mind, he's studied the bible and religion for over 30 years. He doesnt really consider himself a christian, he calls himself a Seventh-day Adventist. Heres most of what he told me. He has his own site, with books that he's written and other stuff. midnightcryministries.com




My best friend often has encounters with former JW's. And, invariably, they are bitter against God and the Bible, and feel that they cannot find truth or trust anyone. The reason for this is that he JW's are a clever mixture of PARTIAL truth with grave error. They get people to trust in their organization by revealing blatant flaws in Contemporary Christianity (such as an eternally burning hell, immortal souls, uncovering the pagan connections of modern holidays, including supposed Christian celebrations like Easter and Christmas, ect) But his third "point" is THE earmark of a false religion. JW's assert that the Bible, from page one to the last page, is a "Jehovah" book. But the Bible is actually, from page 1 to the last page, a JESUS book. What they fail to see is that every page declares that Jesus IS Jehovah. Jesus himself said, "You [Jewish religious leaders] search the Scriptures, because you think that in them, you have life. But you will not come to me, and these very Scriptures bear witness of ME." I have actually written an entire book, my longest book in content, on this subject, showing that Jesus IS Jehovah. (( its online, midnightcryministries.com, in the online books, its called The Lord God)) And like I said, it's exhaustive in it's content. There's no possible way that you can contest the content of that manuscript.

Now, let's examine the Watchtower Society (the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses) from a merely logical standpoint: 1. They claim to be God's ONLY source of communication to earth. They are basically God's prophetic voice. Thus, anyone who is NOT a JW, is of the devil and going to hell. (Question: If the Bible says that "a great multitude, so great in number that NO ONE COULD POSSIBLY COUNT IT" are going to stand redeemed and saved before God's thorne, how could this TINY little organization be the ONLY truly saved people?) 2. They PROHIBIT their members from reading any literature from any other organization, and worse, they are forbidden to study the Bible on their own, because they might come up with a "wrong" interpretation. No, they can ONLY read Watchtower literature (Question: What are they afraid of? The truth has nothing to fear from investigation. It is God himself who said, "Come, let's reason together" and "Be careful who you trust!" and "Don't believe me because of claims, but believe me because I've proven that I am trustworthy".) 3. They claim to be God's "prophet" or voice on earth, yet they have continuously changed their beliefs, even beliefs that have cost members their very lives. They continuously set dates for the second coming of Jesus (obviously, he has not returned yet), they said Abraham was going to come to earth in 1973 (and even built a house for him in San Diego!!!), but he didn't... and like I said, people have literally DIED because of things they taught, but LATER REPUDIATED! Currently, they teach that you can't take a blood transfusion, or you'll be lost for eternity. I wonder when they will change that teaching? You know they will, based on their history.

The Bible tells us TWO great tests of whether or not someone is speaking on God's behalf: 1. If a prophet says something is going to happen, but it doesn't, God says, "I HAVE NOT SENT HIM.", because God knows the future perfectly, so his prophets don't make mistakes. As shown above, the Watchtower organization has made MANY, MANY prophecies that did not come true (Including the end of the world in 1973). By the Bible's #1 test, they are a FALSE prophet. The second test is, even if what they predict DID come true, but they tell you to follow other gods other than the only true God, don't believe them. The god of the Watchtower Soceity is just a big man who doesn't REALLY know what's going on, but has to ask his angels to report to him what they've seen (the true God of the Bible is omnipresent and omniscient, which means he is everywhere and knows everything)

Just like every other false religion, they are PLAUSIBLE (meaning, they SEEM to be true, on the surface), but on investigation are just another false religion, designed to draw us away from the Creator, who became a human being and lived among us for 33 and 1/2 years. To them, Jesus is nothing more than the first angel created, and once he died, God dissolved him and "re-created" him as a "spirit creature" (meaning, they get rid of Jesus) They SEEM to believe what the Bible teaches about "hell", but in reality, they don't. They do rightly reject the teaching that God will roast sinners for eternity, but they teach that God will "destroy" or "annihilate" his enemies in a fiery death.

This is not what the Bible teaches. They rightly identify Michael, the Archangel, as Jesus Christ's name before his becoming human. But they use this to teach that Jesus is nothing more than a created being, a mere angel. The truth is that "Michael" means "The One Who Is Like God" in Hebrew, and "angel" only means "Messenger" in Hebrew, and they ignore that "The Angel of the LORD" in the Old Testament is MANY, MANY times identified as 1) a distinct person from God (the Father), 2. Yet at the same time continuously identified as God himself. They rightly reject the pagan notion of "immortality of the soul", but they don't believe that God can preserve our identity after dying, so their god has to "re-create" clones of us, but it's not REALLY us who are resurrected. The Bible is clear that it is US, really US, who, even though we die, will be resurrected.

The funniest thing about the JW's is their calling card. For YEARS they made a HUGE deal about God's "real" name being "Jehovah". But it turns out that this is TOTALLY wrong. His "name" is Yahweh, so, by their standards, THEY are worshipping a false god! (the intricate details are in the first chapter of my book)

See, the thing is, MOST Christians are SO ignorant of what the Bible says and teaches, that when a Jehovah's Witness encounters one, they run their little program they have been endoctrinated in (they don't know the Bible any better, but, they have been TAUGHT a certain speech) Most Christians are at a loss for words.

Oh, it's easy to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses if you know the Bible. 1. You read to them THEIR OWN calling card, in Isaiah, where "Jehovah" says, "I am the first and the last; besides me, there is no other god." So you ask them, "How many 'first and last's can there be?" You show the several of these claims of God himself, including in the first chapters of Revelation, where, in their twisted copy of the Bible (oh, yeah... forgot that one earlier... they have a 'version' of the Bible that they claim is the ONLY one that is true, but, surprisingly, they are the ONLY church that believes in it!!!) You show them the following verse: "I am A, and I am Z. I am the first and the last..." and before you finish the verse, you ask, "Who, according to your understading, is speaking?" Based on what we've talked about, if JEHOVAH has said "I am the first and the last, besides me, there is no other god", who do YOU think is speaking? ((Me: God)) You're right. But listen to the rest of the sentence: "I am the one that was dead, and now I am alive forever." WHO is the one who died, and resurrected on the third day? ((me: Jesus)) So, isn't it plain as the nose on your face?

1. God is the first and the last.
2. The one who died and is now alive forever is the first and the last.
3. Logical conclusion, Jesus is God

My book, the LORD God, has page after page after page of Biblical evidence PROVING that Jesus is Jehovah/God.

There are THOUSANDS of prophecies of the future in the Bible, and every single one of them has come true. Yet the vast majority are about Jesus himself. And they all testify that it is NOT a lesser being that God sent, but HE HIMSELF came to save his children. The JW's are a joke. They really are. They take clueless Christians and indoctrinate them. Turn them into soulless legalists. And when they finally wise up and see that they are in a den of snakes, they sadly lose faith in the Bible and God altogether. It is only Seventh-day Adventists, who (not exclusively, but for the most part), have a correct understanding that God is love, and that he doesn't use force, fear, manipulation or intimadation. Don't believe that God is a schizophrenic who says, "Love me, or I'll destroy you/burn you in hell for eternity" Have the health message. Place Jesus Christ in his proper place as the Creator of everything that exists. Understand what the war is really about, and why we're still here 2,000 years after Jesus triumphantly declared on the cross, "It is finished!!!"

^Meh.

None of that was particularly enlightening. Your cousin has a weird, childish way of speaking and presenting his point that I don't like.

Eventually it verges on the same thing: be my religion, for we are the raddest.

I just think everybody should make up their own mind. Raise your kid in your own religion, but don't force anything on them, and encourage them to make up their own minds when they grow up.

I don't really identify fully with any religion, but I'm at least somewhat respectful of most (not too into Mormonism or Scientology). Nor am I a huge fan of organization of religion, but that's more because of the people in the institutions than the institutions their selves.

Im pretty sure he didnt say anything like that at all. He was just addressing Usurper's first post. He's not trying to convert me or anyone, for that matter.

He's doing exactly what you say in your post; hes not forcing anything onto anyone, just addressing JW's and what they do. At least it has actual proof and text from the bible, as opposed to what most are saying, which is just guesses. But i guess the way that he presents his points (merely to try to make it easier to understand; some things from the bible can be difficult to understand) is too bothersome to you so you missed those said points.

No, I read it. It just sucked.

And no, he definitely didn't resist a little plug for his own religion.

And no shit he's not forcing anything onto anyone, he's not really in a position of any power. I was talking about parents to their kids.

It did have a couple of quotes from The Bible, but that didn't really impress me.

I dont know what else you expect... i mean, its just a response to the topic.At least its someone who actually knows and isnt just spewing shit they've been told left and right.

I actually found that a good read.

Maybe I mostly wasn't impressed because it was basically a tirade against JW, when the only person in this topic claiming they were the greatest made silly points, so I had no reason to think either way on JW and don't really care. To prove ("prove") that one religion doesn't follow The Bible that well when there's nobody to even prove if The Bible is the truth is mehhhhh.

Also, your cousin's gratuitous emphasis on unimportant words gave me the feeling of televangelism.

hey dude, this is called intelligent discussion. When have you ever had anything non-surface to say? And jehovahs witnesses are piece of shit sheep. Who doesn't celebrate a birthday or not talk to certain family members because they aren't part of their religious sect, or get blood transfusions? Oh, spineless brainwashed sheep asshole pawns you say? yeah i thought so too.

own..

All versions of Christianity has grave error. JW just has less of it. And hell, yes, I'm bitter against Christianity.



Of course it's a book about God!

God > God's prophets

It's not an isolated occurrence in beliefs, just look at Islam.




Watchtower is just as full of shit as the Vatican.



They don't believe in hell.



Correction, they are the biggest group of people going to heaven. JW has a completely different concept of heaven; and you don't need to go to heaven to have a perfect afterlife.



-If you know your religion to be true, studying others is a waste of time, unless for the purpose of converting others.

-How do you think the bible was originally misinterpreted? :-/



Absolutely false. If we weren't the ones to be resurrected, then there would be almost no point in serving God. As for the word "clones", that's in the physical sense, and the rest is just a debate on the realm of human self-consciousness.



A rose by any other name...


But seriously, though, that doesn't do much to disprove JW. It basically says that Jehovah's Witnesses point out flaws in the bible, righteously reject pagan beliefs (Which is actually my argument for why JW is better, and you're only backing that up), and reintroduce their own flawed beliefs in place of the old flawed beliefs.



Please tell me that this is sarcasm. It's hard to believe that you're my age.

"WHOAMG, people with different beliefs. Must be sheep!"

They don't believe in hell, which is (depending on which religion you ask) either a fiery pit of eternal torment, or merely an eternity spent away from heaven and God's love.

Instead, they believe that after the apocalypse, God will resurrect everyone and they'll live in a paradise on Earth. Except for some people, but instead of being sentenced to spending eternity not entering heaven and not basking in God's love, they spend and eternity not being resurrected into paradise.


Please explain the major difference here.





Would you consider the members of Heaven's Gate to be sheepish?

There's a difference between regarding everyone who's opinions differ from your own as sheep, and regarding people who seem to follow the orders of people based on an authority they claim without convincing evidence as to the source of that authority. Particularly when following that authority involves something like, for instance, not getting a blood transfusion in a situation where it would save your life.

"They do rightly reject the teaching that God will roast sinners for eternity, but they teach that God will "destroy" or "annihilate" his enemies in a fiery death."

And you just pick and choose what you reply to. Some of the best stuff that disproves JW's the most, you just ignored. Not that you could really say much anyways... point is, its NOT better. If anything, they're worse. They literally prey on christians that hardly know the bible, and then throw their own little beliefs and what not in there too. Thats not better. Thats just as bad, if not worse.

You posted an irrelevant wall of text, full of either trite or dull rhetoric.

You say Jehovah's Witnesses prey on Christians that hardly know the bible, but Christians pray on others who hardly know the bible. Look at the thousands, if not millions of Christians who have done missions worldwide. Spreading your word to those who don't know it doesn't make you a bad guy, and using the words "literally prey" is just trying to slap Jehovah's Witnesses with more negative connotation, which doesn't work if you have higher than a 10th grade reading comprehension level.

The major difference would be nonexistence vs. eternal suffering, which are two very fucking different concepts. Do I need to elaborate?




No more sheepish the the other billions of people who blindly follow a religion.



The biggest "authority" on religion is currently mainstream Christianity, followed by Islam, neither of which will consider any other word to be the truth. Why try to convince an "authority", who by protocol, will not take you seriously?



Boo-fucking-hoo. How many people die from being a Jehovah's Witness and refusing a blood transfusion? Not many. If you want religious institutions to save lives, tell the Catholic church to advocate birth control, and prevent famine caused by overpopulation.

I don't believe "YEAH WELL CHRISTIANS DO THIS" qualifies as intelligent discussion.

Usurper, some people have different ideas of hell.

For me, the thought of nonexistence is worse then any stories about fiery pits or eternal sufferings.

Please.

Thats all you've been posting since the get go. Any actual evidence that was brought up, including quotes from the bible, (which may not count for much, but in this discussion is worth much more than your "well i was taught this and think its better" argument that you've been presenting) and you simply ignored it. I mean, you deleted the entire quote that i posted in that response of yours, and you did the same thing to my first post. I imagine its because you cant reply, since im sure you know the bible about as well as ripken does fashion

All you did in the rest of that reply is try and turn the argument back around. "YEAH WELL LOOK WHAT CHRISTIANITY DOES" isnt really that great of an argument, especially when the person that said all that isnt even a christian. And before you get mixed up and start to tell me what I'M trying to say, which happens often around here, my argument isnt that christianity is better, its that JW's are just as bad.

Superb posts by Dei and sandvag.

I'll tell you who the very best Christians are. These are lapsed Christians, who have understood what the core teachings are there for and managed to shake off the dogma and bullshit around it. Especially that Old Testament nonsense. Mark's gospel chapter 13 (New testament) is very fun though. All hellfire, punishment, judgement etc.

I'm not talking about the commandments, no, I'm just talking about "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". That's the best thing to work from for anyone.

JWs are nothing more than an international nuisance. When I lived in the UK they would have their AGM a mile away from my home. You know they all meet there so they can get their kids to find a nice spouse who is a JW? Their prejudice towards others is pathetic.

A while ago I would've completly disagree with you (once posting on the old board that I didn't think JWs were annoying or deserved to be hated) A few years ago I had a chat with one that came to my door and while absolutely nothing he was saying to me seemed very different than what I had already learned being a Catholic, I've had numerous run-ins with them have made me agree with this sentiment.

It's one thing to offer someone a pamphlet because you think someone needs salvation, it's another thing to litterally shove the papers into someone's hands without saying a word to them as if your shit is that great.

Well that statement is harsh, they are a cloistered and unfriendly group that take many things too far.

I'd almost prefer the unfriendly evangelists to the creepy ass Mormons and Christians (note that I'm borderline Christian) who've tried to convert me.

Actually, it's a great argument, since I'm comparing JW to other branches of Christianity, and not your bullshit quotes.

Those bullshit quotes count for much much more in this argument than the pre-recorded messages you've been taught and are now spreading like some sheep. You're not even a JW.

If its such bullshit, how come this is the best reply you can come up with? The real bullshit here has been your replies. You got nothing. Why dont you write up a worthwhile reply to what i was saying? Oh wait. You cant. You dont know jack shit about the Bible, just what those brainwashers taught you, and you fuckin jumped right in.

And whats with the obsession with comparing it to christianity? Is it because most of the world is christian, and it makes you feel cool, feel different to think you know something they dont or something? Christians are just as wrong as JW's... what the fuck makes you think JW's are any better? Oh thats right.. you were a JW... You're just like every JW i've met, arrogant but just turns shit around with no real argument, just repeating the stupid shit they've been told to repeat.

Just. like. you. did. here.

pre-recorded? Fuck that shit, most JW will tell you what you must believe to be saved in the time of Revelations. My material is original, FUCK YOU, etc.



The "obsession" is that 90% of Christianity is bullshit, and this version is obviously the best. Not that people will admit it, because WAAAAAAAAH! No holidays!!!1!

And if I left the Kingdom Hall against my family's wishes, wouldn't that be a reason to HATE it more than every branch? You go back and forth between acknowledging that I'm not JW, and telling me I only like it because I USED to be in it. In reality, if I liked it as much as you imply I do, I would still be a part of it. You didn't know how to approach specific points of my argument. Hell, you don't even know how to deal with ME.

Original? HAH! Thats fucking hilarious! Theres nothing original about the whole fuck you attitude, and if you really think you're being original...

You had like, 3 arguments that were already picked apart, and now you have resorted back to bullshit you already brought up with people not liking the no holidays rule, and now you're talking about me handling you? You got nothing. NOTHING.

And why would i want to deal with YOU? YOU'RE not the subject, Jehovas Witness bullshit religion is. Im not here to fuckin analyze you. Why dont you just give up? Im sorry, kid, but in the long run, you dont know what you're talking about. I approached all the worthwhile points you brought up, dismantled them, and you never replied. You just said "OH LOOK AT CHRISTIANITY" when my whole point has been they're both full of shit.

The fact that you think ones "better" baffles me, but at the same time, i realize you're just ignorant on the subject of god and the bible.

Now all I have to do is sit back. Your Ad Hominem attacks continue to lose steam.

Actually, that doesn't work, as that's all he can do against you, as you haven't provided an argument. Ever. You've dismissed points, ignored points, attacked other people, and finally given blanket statements without providing evidence.

For example, page 1:

Attack with no basis. My opinion is right because you are not. No evidence, no argument.

When shown the fact your argument is subjective, and thus not debatable:

I can give reasons why the Packers are my favorite football team. Doesn't make them the best. You then ignore the point provided(there's no real point to this, as the topic is your opinion, and you won't change it), then insult the person.

Page two:

Big generalization about other religions, which is meant to make you better. Especially humorous when taken in context with your next 'point':

How many church services have you been in? How many different branches? So...your point is that you know exactly what happens in all Christian churches across America, purely by secondhand knowledge, but no one else can know anything about JW because...it's all secondhand knowledge?

Page three:

So, you say all other branches are 50% full of it. JW takes out that 50%, and introduces their own 50%. Thus they are better. Or, they're equally full of it, yet subjectively they could be considered better by some.


This was after you were asked to elaborate on the difference between nonexistence and eternal suffering. So, I guess I will answer the question you posed: Yes, you have correctly interpreted that we asked you to elaborate. Please do so.

In the end, we may as well give up on this. You have proven throughout this topic that you are not interested in reasoned debate, you merely wish to peddle your opinion as if it were some divine revelation.

We do not care.

We don't care for many reasons. One could be that we have our own beliefs, and when someone insults them it irritates us. One could be that you come across as a snobby, spoiled brat who wants to be listened to. One could be that our mothers didn't hold us enough as children. However, I think the main thing is that we come to this section of the forums for reasoned debate, or intelligent discussion. You have provided none. While amusing, it really isn't what we come here for.

As to your original point: I'm happy that you have found a place where you may sit in judgment on people you've never met. You seem to be irritated with the idea of mainstream religion. Well sport, good news: Jesus Christ himself wasn't a big fan of it. See, His message was personal. It was about a personal relationship between the person and God, the Father. He also came to bring salvation from mankind's sin. See, many debate the ideal of an all-loving God who can still send people to hell. It's not an ego trip. It's parenting, on a scale we don't fully understand. If you tell your child not to do something, and he does it, do you not punish him? Wait, let's back up. Would you tell your child not to do something if it will harm him? If it would harm others? Those were the commandments God gave to His people. Think of how many relationships get screwed up in today's age with the phrase "He cheated on me." Think of how much robbery and murder take from people. God told us not to do these things because He knew they would only bring suffering. Now, your child breaks your rules, and gets another child hurt. Do you punish him? What if you offered him a way out of the punishment, say apologizing to the person? If they decided they would refuse, would you punish them?

That's what Christ came to Earth to provide. A way out. We honestly say that we are sorry for our transgressions, and boom, we're washed white as snow. Clean record. Then, some people say hell is too much of a punishment. We're given our entire lives to apologize. Nothing we do between birth and death cannot be forgiven. We say we're sorry for what we've done and go back to the Father, and we're set. If we don't, we're staring at the person that created us, cared for us, and loved us, and telling Him to go screw Himself. We know the punishment and we don't care. How is that Him not being loving? He gives us life, gives us infinite chances to apologize and make our mistakes right, and even rewards us through the blessing we get in life when we don't obey Him, but it's Him being unloving when we turn our backs on Him and walk to the gates of hell itself? Of course, this is where people accuse God of being negligent, letting us go to our dooms. Is that even the case? How many times throughout your life have you seen a church, a bible, or had someone talk to you about faith? How are those not ways out? Some then say that it's not obvious enough. We need a roof being torn off, we need to know! ...then what is the point of faith? If everyone is directly told by an omnipotent being ripping off their shingles, do we even have a choice anymore? God loved us enough to give us the opportunity to worship Him. He loved us enough to make it our choice. He loved us enough to honor our choice, even if it's not what we wanted.

It isn't about holidays. It isn't about who among us is better. It's about Him. What He gave us, what He gives us, and what He offers us. Not because we deserve it, because it's who He is. He is Love. Justice. Compassion. Truth. He gave us the choice to worship and believe, or not to. Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, Pagan, Merlin himself, it doesn't matter. No one among us is better. No one among us is good. No one among us is right. It's our choice. Worship, or don't. Obey, or don't. Love, or don't. Do...or don't. Whether you want to believe it's real or not, it's our choice. Saying I don't want to choose isn't doing. Saying I shouldn't have to choose isn't doing. You have your whole life to say that one yes that makes all the difference. But none among us knows the day or hour we pass. Is it worth it? To turn your back until the last minute, when you go running back because you see what's coming? Is it what a friend should do? Is it what a child should do? Is it what you should do?

...if any of this made a difference to you, I'd love to hear from you. I know, I'm preaching. I know, it probably doesn't matter. But...one can always hope.

(P.S.: If you're a Jehovah's Witness, I'm sorry, but you're dead. It's said that to look upon God is to die. God is Jehovah. By witnessing him, you have died. So, I apologize, but your name means "I'm dead.")

And yours don't?

Thats all you can do, because you dont know what the fuck you're talking about. Topic done. You lose.

You cited someone who is hardly a professional, rehearsed trite comebacks, and really just turned this topic sour. No one won or lost, and the question stands: Is JW a superior branch of Christianity for ridding itself of Pagan influence?

Topic re-opened because no one posts on ID. :-o

So make a new topic:/

ID kind of sucks, though, because it always boils down to everybody thinking they're right and the other person's a jackass.

That is a complete nonsense so no. The supposedly pagan influences were introduced by early christians to make their religion more palatable and more in line with the local sun religion. It was a pure powerplay to ensure they could become state approved. Superiority cannot be claimed since the religion wouldn't exist today without it. And to be honest I doubt if people even know what is pagan, what is christian or what is jewish in their religion's workings or how it influences anything. If you really want to be picky it can be pointed that Christianity in its purest, earliest form was as an apocalyptical sect of Judaism. Which I probably already did. Can't be arsed looking.

There is no pure religion. Only pure faith. No religion can claim superiority over another.

Then why does society pick on Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Scientology?

Haha, because they suck.

I guess he's got you there, Dei.

Because society isn't a religion? Thus, society can claim superiority over those groups?

I would say it has to do with the popular media depictions of those religions.

Mormons are always stereotyped as being bigamists (Which I don't even see as picking on really, I don't really think that many people have an actually problem with bigamy, but it might be that other weird shit you hear about on Dateline, like the marriage to little girls and the expulsion of boys and shit), JWs as being annoying people that try to convert you, and Scientologists...well I don't think it has as much to do with the space-planes as it has to do with Celebrities (like Tom Cruise) converting to the Religion and then saying really stupid shit on TV (like his whole rant on Psychiatric medicine and anti-depressants)...of course that South Park episode probably didn't do them any favors. If it wasn't for those things Scientology would probably still be in the background of things.

I think the main reasons Scientology gets so much crap is because of how recently it was created, along with it's origins.

Why does society pick on any religion?

Because it is an academic (well according to my training) idealistic statement I made as you very well know. Society does not live up to an ideal. And indeed why should it since that would rather negate the need for different religions.

You know, I swore I would give up discussing religion.

The story of the founding of Mormonism is a little sketchy as far as a lot of people are concerned, that makes them ripe for parody.

Jehovah's Witnesses go door to door, which a lot of people find annoying.

Scientology has many beliefs which people find absurd, plus they're new to the scene.

It does the body good. (Not discussing/debating religion.)


Annoying is a gross understatement. There is nothing, without infringing upon my individual rights, that is more disrespectful, detestable, annoying, and invasive than knocking door to door trying to convert someone to their point of view. I mean fuck, the most annoying thing in the world to me is when someone doesn't agree with your point of view so they try to push theirs onto you, and when you go fucking door to door to do it? Fuck. That. I would stand strongly by this opinion no matter what I had faith in, too. I mean hell, I really like a lot of the ideals involved with Buddhism and I would never once think to ever try to press them on someone.

-How do you think Jesus got the word out?

-It's not "pressing" beliefs on anyone. If you don't want to talk about it, they leave. You're getting way too defensive, all because you don't believe. That's very childish, Kefka.

How do I think Jesus got the word out? I don't think he fucking EXISTED. Not the person to ask. (white bible Jesus =/= the jesus that existed, they're not the same person to me)

It's childish of you to assume that you know what all the door to door jehovah's act like. I'm not here to argue with you about it, either. I wouldn't be saying these things if it was as easy as "not interested." I'm sure there are ones that respectfully leave it at that, but those ones, apparently, aren't the ones interested in the door to door shtick.

I sadly haven't encountered any recently enough to try out this whole gay thing on them, though. I really would get some amusement out of that.

I don't like religion because it instills this sense of "I CAN NEVER BE WRONG" in people. It might not set out to do that, but fucking A if it doesn't. If there was a way to say that without it sounding offensive, I'd go for it, but whatever. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions or trying to generalize too much, but on the other hand it wouldn't be a lie to say I've nver met someone who was devoutly religious that has ever admitted they were wrong. In anything. Nothing comes to mind. This is moreso the folks that put religion before anything else.

Famine is a result of poverty, not overpopulation. Agriculture markets are tricky and ,while we have more then enough food, they have to withhold alot to keep the markets stable.

And what church does advocate birth control?

None, really, I don't think. He's just saying you're better off convincing them of that.

Famine is one of the results of overpopulation. Even if you're right (you're not) and it isn't (it is), you can't tell me that overpopulation is a bitch.

No churches advocate birth control, but since it's a more important issue than (waaaaah) blood transfusions, I brought it up.

So are you saying that Jesus didn't exist, or that the Jesus portrayed in Christianity doesn't exist?



Of course there will be exceptions, but I know (I don't have to assume) what they act like. I'd challenge you to at least offer an anecdote, but you concede before I can call you out on your bullshit.



I'd expect an open homosexual to dislike Christianity, since it condemns their lifestyle.

He's denying - but I'm saying Jesus' very life was all the proseletyzing he needed to do - he inspired others to be good by his words and his deeds and they came freely to listen to his wisdom. Unlike the JW's wisdom that, for some reason, apparently needs to be preached to me at 7 A.M. on a Saturday when I'm very hung over.

While I've only ever had one JW come to my home (All the other ones I've met try to give me pamphlets at the bus stop,) looking back at the incident, I'd say it was pretty messed up. I was eleven or so at the time and the man asked if he could speak to my father, when I told him that my dad was sleeping he goes "Then can I talk to you, about religion?"

I did talk to the guy because I figured it was harmless (and honestly, he didn't say a single thing to me that made his religion seem different from mine, aside from calling God Jehovah), but I don't see how anyone can tell me that trying to convert a child isn't ten different kinds of fucked up. You should be able to raise your children whatever faith you want but you need your head examined if you try and press your faith on someone else's kid.

You raise an interesting point. Why is that? Do you feel you own your child's mind?