I find myself wondering this day after day.

Our society holds the candle of success and fame to an elite, lucky few. Those who bask in the glory of inheritance or the rare hard-worked gain that paid off in the end for multiple people. But the majority of us realistically will never taste such glory. We all have our own career paths that may have an effect on a few people other than us, but I think all of us can say that we have lofty expectations of being able to really make the world take notice and achieve that level of fame that will leave a lasting impression.

So, why can't your everyman in this world achieve that? 6 billion people and maybe the top .1% leave behind an incredible legacy. Is it a lack of motivation, or do we push each other down on the way to the top?

People often, in my opinion, mistake "realism" for what society expects of them. Too often do I get told I can't do something or get something I've wanted because it's not "realistic" or I don't have what places are looking for or it's not right for me, etc. Everything is based around finding something for the short-term that will stabilize you, and it's usually not what you want, or even close to it.

And then what happens is many of us get stuck. We reserve ourselves to sticking with this one thing we may find, be it what we really wanted to do or not, because what we really want is just out of our reach. We're a community of blue-coller telemarketers, typists, janitors, cashiers, payday loan clerks, etc. I see basic high school kids all the way up to senior citizens working these positions to make some money.

My question is: are these people underachieving because they're lazy, or because they think they won't accomplish their goals? This is a very Fight Club-esque question of me, plus I'm extremely frustrated with my own job situation right now, but our culture puts in our heads to focus on the little picture while flashing all these images of things we'll never have right in front of our eyes. It's a hypocritical system.

I could never work as a typist or clerk or salesman for an extended period of time. When I do things like that, I get down on myself and feel like I'm not performing up to the potential that I know I have. Yet I have to go and do it, and hope that I can save up some money to do something better. But I see these twenty-somethings making millions, getting connections, doing all this crazy stuff and I tell myself I can do that as well. But I don't know where to start when I have to support so much else already outside of my own aspirations.

My problem is I have the aspiration to do a billion different things. One career would bore me. I want to sing in a metal band, do modeling photography, write a killer fantasy or sci-fi novel, start my own recording studio or PR firm, manage a band, travel the country and promote concerts and upcoming artists. Hell, lately I've been discussing with a friend opening a Backspace-like (internet arcade/cafe/study zone) place in Eugene, only with a venue as well for metal and punk shows. I'd even like to coach a football or basketball team.

I think America needs an overhaul in promoting opportunities for the everyman to achieve what they want, without having to worry about money, security, loans, debt, etc. We instill in many people at a young age that their future won't be remembered by many, and that life is over too fast to make that large impact. I think we need to stop underachieving as a race and get more people to the top. Aspirations and dreams need to be made reality and people should be less pessimistic about where they belong. It's utopian, but on a large-scale effort, I wish something could be done about it.

Your thoughts?

Well, first, I think it depends on how you look at success. Some people are content with not being famous or known, and for the most part, that's me. I don't really care if I become a household name or not (and I most certainly won't) (not implying that you do either).

Look at someone like Paris Hilton. Is she successful? Well, first of all, I would say "succeed" implies that you accomplished a hard-earned goal. Is that Paris? No. (Well, she did make an album!) Anyway, people might think she's successful when you generically ask them, but I would imagine most would think she isn't when you got down to it.

Shouldn't we instill somewhat of a dream into our children? Not necessarily movie star success and dreams, but even a small one? Who wants to look forward to a life of being a janitor?

It's really all subjective. I'm not even sure what my standard for success is... I guess it's just lead a life that you're going to be happy with. If you pull it off, well, in my eyes, you succeeded. I'm sure there's more to it, but whatever.

I see what you mean by the realistic thing and I'm sure it happens to tons of people. I don't know what to say about it though.

You know, I was just wondering about this.

When you see the magnitude of the accomplishments of mankind... for good or ill, they are great.

When you look at your fellow man, however, what do you see? Deceit, violence, temerity, apathy, sloth, wrath. And you are no exception. I know my own apathy, my own timidity, my own sloth. I know it doesn't make me a great person. But I know that, at least, I dream.

The simplest explanation is that a man is an ant, but Men is greater than any Hive. I guess you could put it that way. That the society on which our fascinating species rests emerges from otherwise inadequate individuals. Of course, you can't put individuals together in a room and out pops society... there was a progression somewhere. Like an evolution. Small steps.

Or maybe men today are worse than men of yesteryear. Maybe the tribes in the savannah who started bartering with one another or playing with grasses and liquids and making little sparks and strange smells and smearing it over their spears as poison for hunting were all stronger minded than we are now. Doesn't take long for them to use that poison on each other, though.

Or we could just be bolstered by those few and proud people who really are wonderful individuals. This isn't to say that they are faultless, just with that little bit more drive and little bit more determination. Maybe almost all of us are like that, who are terrible people but for one great achievement. One man invents the lightbulb, another supports five of his fellows, another drives trucks to faraway places to connect faraway people. Get enough single good acts together along with scores of poor ones per person, you could end up with a feasible society that seems more than its parts.

Seems to me it's mostly an anthive thing, though. The whole thing seems to work from the top down. Say, the elite cabal of government brings directives down to those beneath them, which in turn do the same... at some point, your boss at the McDs tells you to mop up some vomit in the playpen, and you grudgingly help keep the wheel of society turning. Though it's more than that. The sheer inertia of our situation keeps us going. Old habits, old forms, old culture, old instincts. Even the people "at the top" don't really know what's going on. They were passed the torch from their predecessors, who were in much the same situation. It belittles the complexity of society to even say that there IS a top. Complexity indeed. But the only way to get great things done by little men.

Of course, there are people that I admire greatly, and wouldn't hesitate to say that they are pivotal for the idea of mankind to evolve. I could only hope to be one of them, but some make it, and some don't.

This is a very general question so the answer is really different for every individual.

I think the idea of a minority being 'achievers' and the rest just being blue-collar worker bees trivializes the worth of the latter. First of all, they're necessary to keep a society like this going and if everyone was an overachiever we wouldn't have anyone to fill the lower job positions, it's a simple bell curve when you look at it. Second of all, you're speaking as if one's career is the only thing that makes you worth a damn. You might not leave a mark on the world but you influence the people around you on a daily basis, especially the ones you choose to keep close to you.

There are so many great things about being a worker bee; just consider the amount of freedom you have compared to the guy waist-deep in politics and international relations. When you choose to take a positiion of power and tangle yourself up in that web, you will have to give up a LOT of things on the way. Which is fine if that's what you want, I just don't agree with the idea that the people in power making the Big Decisions are the self-realized humans that we will never be.

That's not really what I meant - it's more of a question of why we can't go out and accomplish our dreams easier, so we instead get stuck being a worker bee in something we don't want.

Because our hunter-gatherer instincts have a thing for instant gratification.

But aren't we in the "Land of opportunity" itself?

Now, I see where you're coming from. You've graduated from college, but no matter how much you wave that degree around, it doesn't open the doors that you want it to open for you. You sit there, full of ideas, full of the life and energy of youth, forced to live without a constructive outlet.

If there's anything I've learned from people who accomplished their dreams, it's that they didn't just work hard, they gave up a shitload of stuff they took for granted. It started out with things like sleep, and escalated into giving up lovers, family, morals, and even free-will. Sure, it's nice being at the top, but it takes a special type of personality to do it: One that can live life for a while reaping no joy whatsoever.

Exactly, thats what I was saying earlier. Now maybe saying that they won't reap any joy whatsoever is exaggerating, seeing how for some people being at the top has its own satisfaction but it definitely comes at a price.

yes.

Reading this topic now makes me think of a paper I had to write for English class on the American Dream. Basically, I stated the American dream was to become the eponymous "Man" that supposedly keeps everyone else down, for the sole purpose of...keeping everyone else down so they can't have what we have.

I'd like to throw another screw into this idea...it really depends on society's view. The ancient Greeks, for example, thought one could only live on through kleos(fame, basically) and the afterlife was a void of souls for everyone. As monotheistic relgions developed, the thought of living life for the afterlife developed, and for strict Christians, that's all that matters....well, depends on your beliefs I suppose.
I had a discussion with my dad last month, and he seemed disturbed that I didn't consider myself to be significant...I really doubt my name will become a household name, and even though I know my life will only be a pebble on the huge beach of the human race's timeline, I'm okay with it.

After a few months, I'm reading this again, and realizing that you're a fucking genius, man. This is shit I'd love to write about in English. Fortunately, we live in an era where the internet is turning ordinary people into something greater. You just have to put yourself out there. There were better performers than Elvis, better basketball players than Jordan, and smarter people than Einstein, but we might never know who they are, because they never had the chance to shine.

I was thinking about this topic but in a different perspective: Who should get paid more? The labourers or the leaders?

Say there is a construction company, and theres a boss who manages the assets and liabilities and relates to the client. Then there are the labourers, who must work for the clients that the boss racked up. Who should get paid more, the people doing the job or the people that call the shots? It should be the labourers, because they get the job done. But the boss also has to pay for the materials required for the jobs.

In the real world, the Boss always gets paid more than anybody else working for the company, no matter how much work the labourers have done. This is not the same case for sporting events though.

But I think people realise that they must start from the bottom to work their way to the top.

Reading this almost a year later I gotta say I still agree with what I said before. Want to add something to the discussion, though:

No you just didn't get the chance to see them shine, there's a difference. You knowing who a person is doesn't make their life any more or less significant. They might have not influenced as many people as Elvis or Michael Jordan but does that make them underachievers?

It's pretty sad, and I see it in almost every career. You work the hardest to get paid the least, but once you move up, you work the lightest to get paid the most. The people "calling the shots" aren't as important as their paychecks would lead you to believe. After one month at any job, I've never had a manager who could do something that I couldn't.

Then why aren't you the manager? The main purpose of those salaries is to motivate you to take the place of those currently earning them.

There are studies showing that paying a ceo or manager more is actually more effective at boosting general worker productivity than paying the workers more, or providing more benefits, because all the workers want to be at the top, making those ridiculous salaries. But there's a big difference between those who think they can do that work and those who actually get there.

I was offered to try for a management position at my old job, Sunglass Hut, but I go to college full time, have extracurriculars, and therefore was unable to work the 43 hours a week they were asking of me.

I disagree with these "studies" you mention, since most workers don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting promoted, especially at my age.

Are you guys serious? If the managers got paid less, then there wouldn't be any managers. Who the fuck would want the responsibility?

Societies' general Idea of success is what is most productive and benefitial for society. So who is to say that is what makes someone fee good and satisfied with themselves. So you should feel better about yourself for making 80k a year over 30? If you buy into that its hard to be content because of all the restrictions placed on us. I think people generally seem to be apathetic and/or lazy underachievers because they know from experience they are being limited and will likely never achieve those goals, since they'd have to rely heavily on other people to get them there. It isn't a clearcut game where the more you do and the harder you do it the more you'll achieve. There are plenty of things in your way. Down to things you cannot possibly change about yourself like race or appearance or abilities. Besides being a little battery for society isn't really the cream of the crop of ideas on how to live your life. Some people actually value their 'success' on how content they are in their life and the people and relationships they have gained. I feel kind of bad for men, because it seems like they're pressured so much to acheive some sort of status in their social group and are judged on their jobs. And thats fucking ridiculous. Who cares what job you have? Unless you're actually doing something that is largely helping people and you're doing it for thost reasons and not how you'll look. WHat kind of retarded value system bases your self worth on how much money you make doing pointless shit for 'the man'(lol). Idk, might as well view it as, hey you have a job and you can support yourself, your family etc. Awesome, I think that is enough. All that other value on achievments bullshit is probably just because of testosterones cause of competitive nature. Idk, those are things you can definately rise above though and it seems best to try and do so. You'll at least be less stressed out and live longer, probably.

I don't know, I think most people want a high paying job so that they could have financial security/freedom. Of course there are people who just want the status but I don't think that's how the majority sees it. I could be wrong.

And I don't feel like I'm being pressured to achieve a certain social status, I think that depends on the people you hang around.

And what do you mean exactly when you say that people are apathetic because they're limited and will never achieve their goals? I guess if you're a high school dropout or something but whose fault is that? I dropped out of college in the beginning of this year because I didn't know what I wanted to do but now I'm considering being a pilot so I'd have to go back. If I don't get back into school that'll be my fault and no one elses, and that goes for every step from there until the pilot's seat. If you're born in America you really have no excuse, unless you're born retarded or something. Yeah you can blame the environment but that sounds like a cop-out to me (and I think if parents raised their kids right, then the environment would have a lesser impact).

Of course there will always be variables you can't control or predict but if you're living in a country like the US and you don't at least try to get what you want then you have no one else to blame but yourself.

Eh, you're assuming on the basis we all are born with the same opportunities. There are many who are born into low income areas, without a lot of funding for schools. How can you blame that on children? They aren't born dumb they are uneducated. Society doesn't want everyone to be confident healthy and well educated people. A country of those would be able to ovcerthrow the government. The poor feed a capitolist society, they buy the shitty fastfood, or cheap shit like ramen and what not. If there isn't the poor to work all the shitty jobs how could it survive.

I meant being pressured by an ideal which is further put into you by echers and parents. You HAVE to go to college, you must get good grades, be productive. If you don't want to work you must be lazy and/or stupid. You can do anything you're special.

Well you are already limited by the elementary and highschools you are able to attend. And by your families income level. By where you grow up. Of course a child who is born a grows up in Boston has more opportunities than a kid who grows up in rural Virginia.

I can't see how when someone is 18 all blame is on them if they can't get their shit together, we don't all start from the same point.

We're looking for than financial security, it isn't just I cvan pay my bills and hav a bit extra. We buy into extravagant lifestyles and live beyond our means. We want overpriced cars, and lavish houses. And of course we're taught all this from the beginning. All those ads you see as soon as you're a kid on tv. They blatently market to kids preparing them for their future of desiring cars and shit, with toys.

-The average American child may view as many as 40,000 television commercials every year (Strasburger, 2001).

-Children as young as age three recognize brand logos (Fischer, 1991), with brand loyalty influence starting at age two (McNeal, 1992).

-Young children are not able to distinguish between commercials and TV programs. They do not recognize that commercials are trying to sell something (Comstock, 1991).

We aren't being taught modesty and smart spending habits. We are basically brainwashed as kids to achieve a certain lifestyle and feel like failures if we haven't.

Sure you can try and get what you want, it doesn't mean because you want to be a rockstar through hardwrk and trying you'll break into the business. Hell we all can realize having natural talent has little to do with that now. Its all a game of image marketed to teenagers and kids. They want you to think anything is possible and you can do whatever you want as long as you get good grades you can go to a great college and are almost garaunteed a good job.

Well, then why is this the first generation of adult children having to live at home after finishing college? The job market is crap and people are drowning in student loans. Maybe all the college propoganda is to make more money off of us? More expensive doesn't mean a better education. And a college degree usually doesn't garauntee you a job. Unless its something like say in the health industry.

Theres also prejudice to think of. If you haven't had to live with it you may not accept that it is around but we're still veyr much a racist country. Its subtle now, but we're still living it. Especially in places that aren't as progressive like the rust belt. Your applications will be dismissed on name alone. You won't be accepted to better schools, because it looks as though you can't afford them. Or maybe even just you came from a shitty highschool that didn't prepare you for college and you are to behind to be accepted. Is that their fault? What school were they supposed to go to? Their forced into a life of poverty, are they supposed to be content with low paying menial jobs in the food industry- where they can barely afford to have children and have to work long weeks? Woudl you be satisfied there? What could you really do in that position? No wonder so many people turn to crime. Often selling drugs.... and this is soo criminalized now that ar eprisons are filled with non violent offenders. We haven't even got gender equality yet I'm still going to be paid less.Of course we don't have race equailty. So if you're under the belief that we are all starting form an acceptably close point, you're sadly mistaken.

But you can really only see things from your reality, and the reality they're feeding you. You'll never understand until you let go of preconcieved notions and take a look and this shit.

I have friends born into homes where 5 people are living off of a 500 a month disability check. They went to district schools (this particular highschool had a fucking paper shortage, no extra programs besides sports, not nearly enough text books among many other obstacles)and now what are they supposed to do? Despite going to summerschool every year because she liked school so much(and was trying to escape a crazy homelife) she got A HORRIBLE score on her ACT's.
Most city kids can't even afford the state school let alone get into it. The only options beyondf highschool for them is a local tech school, whose programs ar ebeing cut eachyear and any of the programs that will actually make you a decent amount of money(again, healthcare field) have waiting lists about 5 years long. Eveyrthing else they offfer is like refridgerator technician and masonry.

I'm a college dropout at this point, and I can live on minimum wage so why can't they?


Yeah you're probably right, I don't even agree too much with my last post now that I look back on it, I was speaking from a personal perspective. This pilot thing I'm trying to go for is gonna be a long shot (the Air Force doesn't let just anyone fly a jet, few make it that far) so I can't spend too much time thinking about the things that are out of my control, no use in that.

I like my first two replies in this topic better, at least in the way that they pertain to the discussion.

If you think that getting a promotion from a higher-up is how you're going to get those high positions and salaries, then you've already lost. Plus, what does your age have to do with anything? The majority of workers are older than you, and those are the ones being motivated by these salaries above them.

I would imagine that someone higher than you will be the one to give you such a promotion, thus a higher salary. At least that's what my bosses at Sunglass Hut making $120,000 salaries in their 20's said.

You have bosses at your sunglass hut store making $120,000 a year? That's a whole lot of extra sunglasses they must be selling, considering that the average sunglass hut manager's salary is around $30,000. zoom zoom zoom

But since we're throwing out anecdotal evidence here, my friend makes 7 digits a quarter trading futures and all of his friends in high business positions refuse promotions to their stellar workers on the grounds that if they're so good at their particular job, then they are unreplacable at that position!

That was for a regional manager, who only has a 4 year degree in International Business. Sales might have something to do with it, since his region includes Scottsdale, Arizona, which is one of their top 5 sellers worldwide.



Haha, I've never had that line used on me, but it is funny.

Consider that a regional manager based in one of the most profitable centers for a firm just might be an anomaly. Factor payments to labor of .7 (an overassumption, really) and economic rents puts the average for regional managers squarely at around 50-70k. What are you trying to say here? That you know a guy who supposedly got promoted into a $120k position? Ever consider that 'you might get promoted' is a motivational tool? I'm sure someone grazing 6 digits has probably used one or two of those in his day. What kind of value does he add to the company on a regular basis? What justification is there for paying him that salary, when Luxottica could return 50k to shareholders annually just by replacing him with someone like you? He only has a 4 year degree, which apparently makes him underqualified, so why shouldn't you, who is only slightly more underqualified, take the job and provide the same value at lower cost?

Maybe he's a far better manager than you could be at this point in time, and you don't know half of what really goes into having a job like his.

Maybe he's a liar trying to either impress you or drive you to work harder.

Or maybe you're right, all those people above you are overpaid, the traditional theory of the firm as we know it is defunct, and you are brilliant enough to immediately handle any of the positions above you with ease, but just haven't been discovered yet because companies like to throw away chances at added value and profit for the sake of keeping diamonds in the rough like you down for no apparent reason except to make less money, cause fuck capitalism, discriminatory socialism is so much better!

Learn something about business which doesn't involve 'first-hand experience' working a shit job and maybe you'll understand why companies work the way they do.
PROTIP: Those people can improve efficiency by thousands of man-hours by changing a couple of words around before the coffee letting you stack boxes 3% faster begins to kick in.
And a buy one get one free: expectations trump reality. Higher salaries for higher positions motivate those who think they can make it up the ladder by working harder at a much higher rate than they demotivate people like you. That's what we in the scene like to call 'majority rules.'