But if everyone were protected against another's violent acts, that would take a large chunk out of free will. You could not choose to hurt someone, because they would be defended, thus making your choice pointless.

Eh, you have a point. After looking at my argument again, it also seems too black and white.

Well, actually, I still don't see why innocent people have to die in circumstances they can't control at all (particularly unexpected natural disasters). Also, why can't a little kid be offered some kind of protection when it comes to rape or murder? There were just two rapings (perhaps by the same guy) of a woman in her 50s and a 13-year-old girl. I don't see why an interventionist god wouldn't step in.

God already knows both your choice and its result. It's already pointless - this is just adding insult to injury.

Pointless? What about to the person making the choice?

I guess that person has the illusion that "his" choice matters, but God certainly doesn't care much farther than you would care about the actual execution of a feat you read about...only less, because He's probably seen billions upon billions of these choices he carefully set up Himself.

Your choice is merely a formality that speeds along the boring process known as "time" towards the inevitable point where He gets to judge you...for the choices he knew you were going to make..because you chose wrong.

Damn, I just realized we can't even really debate this without getting into the can of worms of "What IS a "point" anyway?"

BC, isn't that your view anyway, except for the God part? (In regards to determinism/free will.)

Which also raises the question of why a loving, yet all-knowing deity, assuming of course that he exists as the Abrahamic God, would give us free will if He already knows what we will do with it. Not in the sense of "he wanted man to be free to choose for himself." That, I can understand. However, why would a supposedly loving, forgiving God create somebody knowing before they even set foot on this world or any other that they will make decisions that would end up with their immortal souls being tortured in hell for all eternity after their death.

For example, assuming fundamentalists Christians are 100% right, that homosexuality is a choice and that anyone who chooses it damns themselves forever in the eyes of God, why would God, knowing that this person would wrong him and therefore destroy himself, create him? Why would he allow somebody like Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler or Josef Stalin or Benito Mussolini to be born knowing the choices that they would make, not only sending their souls to hell, but likely taking other, honest Christians who just happened to have unrepented sins on their soul with them. And, assuming the Jews are right and Jesus wasn't the Messiah after all, ESPECIALLY Hitler.

You can say that it isn't God, it's the devil that tempted them into their situation, but the fact is God would ALSO know that the devil would try to tempt them, and that they would succumb to their temptation. There's no way around it...assuming some Abrahamic faith is indeed correct, God is a fucking prick.

I think assuming the Bible (or Koran) is correct, the sect that nailed it was the Calvinists. God and God alone knows what's up. You may be fucked, you may not be. You have the choice to determine that, but in the end, God knew it all along. So just live your life and try to be faithful, you'll know if you're fucked in the end.

I do know that I'm an atheist, though, and if it turns out that I'm wrong and the Christians, Jews, or Muslims are right, and I go to Hell, I'm joining right up with Satan's army to bring that bastard down.

Are you asking me if this is my view or are you surprised I'm arguing it?

I thought it was your view. That free will is an illusion of sorts, and that the universe is deterministic, etc. Might've been Zero though.

Can of worms again there though. Justified sinning.

Indeed.

It did indeed, but that doesn't make it less correct.

Well, I think we're getting into a way of thinking here. Just about any God can be made out to look like a total prick, so many will choose not to worship any God at all.

Most eastern religions don't worship a god, they just follow the teachings of somebody. Abrahamic faiths, and to a small extent Hinduism are really the only major religions left in the world that have an idea of "all-powerful being who created us" type deities.

Predestination is debatable.

Yeah. I made several topics about it, in fact.

Most of them boiled down to solipsism ("I think I choose, therefore I choose") VS empiricism ("Everything ELSE I see happens because of predetermined reasons, why would I be different?")

It's deadlocked because of the very nature of the arguments involved.

Is it also possible that God knows everything that's going on, but not what will go on in the future?

Then again, I'm talking to a hardcore atheist here. I'm afraid you'd walk into debate only looking to disprove God, and not care about the issue at hand, since it's irrelevant to you.

As opposed to the theists who would certainly not use the existence of free will as an indication of their divine creation, eh?

Ribbing aside...

If God knows everything that has happened and everything that is going on, how is it not logical that he knows what you're feeling in your heart and in your mind and what you're going to decide before you even do? He made all of those things!

How can you reconcile God's perfection with such a supposedly chaotic element?

I'd like to add that Determinism does not deter from the eixtence of God in any way - it merely prevents the exercice of Free Will. Even if I was a raging atheist zealot like Lordkenneth ( who moved on to SA, thankfully) I would gain nothing from arguing such a position.

I've seen him on LL a few times too, guy is fucking annoying